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  • View Poll Results: Who makes better performing Diesel engines?

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    • Ford

      15 40.54%
    • Hyundai

      22 59.46%
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    Thread: Ford or Hyundai - Who makes better performing Diesel Engines?

    1. #11

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      Quote Originally Posted by KunaLsFluidic View Post
      I have nothing against Ford, I love EcoSport design and would love to own (already mentioned), but all I wanna know is why Ford hasn't been able to develop or say launch good performance oriented diesel engine in Indian market? Am not comparing Figo with i20 or Swift or Polo, but I'm comparing Fiesta with Verna, Vento, Rapid and so on. They have made a mistake in Fiesta (mainly due to price tag), now I guess Ford shouldn't make any mistake in EcoSport, let it be price tag, features and performance.
      I hardly think we can call the Hyundai Verna engine a performance oriented one...specs on paper may look good but test drives tell actual truth...where Ford's diesel loses out is high end grunt at high speed...actually i think Swift can be called more performance oriented as the torque is non-linear than the Verna or Fiesta perhaps...

      none of the engines below diesel 2.0l can be called performance oriented to be honest... in petrol i would think the Honda iVTEC is the king

      and to be honest, lets admit it...Hyundai makes some beautiful sleek cars and loads them with gizmos and that's what sells to Indian public...

    2. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by KunaLsFluidic View Post
      As far as I understand (am no engineer), turbo-lag means sluggish engine or say low RPM range before the turbo pressurizes and starts delivering/making power.
      Seems like you have gained knowledge by reading online reviews where they keep crying about turbo leg and all.

      Moderns diesel engines are becoming more n more smaller day by day but they still need some more power and to fill that gap, they are quipped with some small power unit called Turbo Charger. Now this turbo charger doesn't always keep providing power to the car, rather it starts after crossing some certain RPMs. The spooling RPMs maybe anywhere between 1400 to 2200 (or maybe different in some cars). Now as the diesel engine itself has smaller capacity and less power. it can't produce enough power on its own so until you cross the turbo spooling limit, power will be less but as soon as you cross the spooling RPMs the turbo kicks in and you have power on tap.

      Now as you were talking on some numbers, 1900 is way too high in a Hyundai engine whereas in a Ford, 2000 is not so far because acceleration reaches at 2000 very early compared to reaching at 1900 in Hyundai which takes ages to reach there.

      Don't go by numbers, practical driving scenarios are totally different.

      Verna can't beat a Vento, Rapid or New Fiesta in terms of power and driving dynamics so thats not the reason for high number of sales, as fordfan also mentioned, Hyundai sales figures are higher because they are making some good "Gadgets on wheels" which appeal to large number of people.
      Last edited by Jack Sparrow; 1st Oct 2012 at 17:45.

    3. #13

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      Quote Originally Posted by fordfan View Post
      none of the engines below diesel 2.0l can be called performance oriented to be honest...
      I totally agree with you, but c'on nobody can deny the fact that Verna, Vento, Rapid diesel engines are the fastest engines and has best torque up to 1600cc category. Fiesta has very sluggish diesel engine, so why is Ford repeating same mistake in EcoSport? I mean why can't they provide better specs? They have done a great job in design and specially the petrol engine of EcoSport, so why not on diesel engine?

      Am not saying Ford engineers are yawning or sleeping or they don't have the technology, look at the specs of Endeavour (2499cc, DOHC Diesel engine, Power: 143PS@3500rpm, 330Nm of torque at just 1800rpm). So why can't they provide better torque in EcoSport's diesel engine? They are clamming a better advanced EcoBoost petrol engine, so why not a better diesel engine with better torque?
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    4. #14

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      Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sparrow View Post
      it can't produce enough power on its own so until you cross the turbo spooling limit, power will be less but as soon as you cross the spooling RPMs the turbo kicks in and you have power on tap.
      my understanding of turbo lag and it maybe incorrect - its the time taken between the rpm where the turbo spools and the actual boost to kick in...i.e. say at 3rd gear we cross 2000 rpm's, it takes a few seconds / mins for turbo to kick in...thats the lag...similar to the lag in petrol cars when you move from 2nd to 3rd gear and the short while it takes for rpm's to climb / power to surge even though your feet maybe mashing the pedal to the floor...

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      Quote Originally Posted by KunaLsFluidic View Post
      So why can't they provide better torque in EcoSport's diesel engine? They are clamming a better advanced EcoBoost petrol engine, so why not a better diesel engine with better torque?
      i also wish they would provide a better engine or at least tune the current 1.5 L engine for more torque / power...but then i guess it will lose out on FE...and in our country, anything which delivers less FE is simply not going to sell beyond us enthusiasts

      btw, lets not knock the Verna please...its a sweet car for city driving and pretty decent highway performer at normal speeds

    5. #15

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      Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sparrow View Post
      Seems like you have gained knowledge by reading online reviews where they keep crying about turbo leg and all.
      To be more specific, how did you learn your knowledge to become an expert when it comes to 'turbo lag'? I learned all of my knowledge from past experience, frequent test drives, and not just reviews. But anyway, where did you get your knowledge from?


      Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sparrow View Post
      Now as you were talking on some numbers, 1900 is way too high in a Hyundai engine whereas in a Ford, 2000 is not so far because acceleration reaches at 2000 very early compared to reaching at 1900 in Hyundai which takes ages to reach there.
      If 1900 is way to high, don't you think that 2000 is even way higher? Its not just about 1900 or 2000 rpm, its also about the torque, Verna delivers 260nm of torque at 1900 rmp, Fiesta delivers 204nm of torque at 2000 rpm, do you see any difference in 'NM' here or just the difference of 100rpm?


      Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sparrow View Post
      Don't go by numbers, practical driving scenarios are totally different.
      I do agree and am not going by just the numbers here, I have driven all the cars (Verna, Fiesta, Vento, Rapid) many times before purchasing my Verna. If its was all about numbers, I would have purchased Rapid (250Nm @ 1500rpm) instead of Verna.


      Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sparrow View Post
      Verna can't beat a Vento, Rapid or New Fiesta in terms of power and driving dynamics so thats not the reason for high number of sales, as fordfan also mentioned, Hyundai sales figures are higher because they are making some good "Gadgets on wheels" which appeal to large number of people.
      Am not highlighting Verna, I have mentioned Vento & Rapid in my comments. Its not about beating other cars, its about EcoSport's diesel engine.
      Pls, Fiesta stands no where in front of Verna, Rapid & Vento in terms of power, in terms of driving dynamics I agree Fiesta is better.
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    6. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by fordfan View Post
      my understanding of turbo lag and it maybe incorrect - its the time taken between the rpm where the turbo spools and the actual boost to kick in...i.e. say at 3rd gear we cross 2000 rpm's, it takes a few seconds / mins for turbo to kick in...thats the lag...
      No, the lag is not the time-lag, its actually lag which we feel because we are driving the car at the RPMs where turbo is not in the act.

      For example, here is a 1.2 ton car with a diesel engine which has 1500 cc of RAW power. Now in a old school manner, it would have deserved a 2000+ cc diesel engine but now its not. So how to fulfill that gap? Add a turbo unit which provides some power equivalent to 4-600 cc. But turbo can be activated for a limited range for say it has active range of 1500 RPMs. So we will have to tune it considering practical driving scenario so we pick practical driving RPM range, which we can assume that the car will need power mostly between 2000-3500 range, so turbo-active range is set to there.

      So now there are two ranges, one is 800/1000 (engine starting RPMs) to 2000 where turbo is inactive and second range is from 2000 to 3500 where turbo is in act. Now the later range has more power compared to previous range

      Now when we start driving, car will have lesser power till 2000 RPMs as the diesel engine itself will be pulling the car with the basic power which it has. Now as soon as you touch the 2000 RPM mark , the additional power of turbo will be added and you will feel more power compared to earlier range.


      Quote Originally Posted by fordfan View Post
      similar to the lag in petrol cars when you move from 2nd to 3rd gear and the short while it takes for rpm's to climb / power to surge even though your feet maybe mashing the pedal to the floor...
      That is different thing, that is not a turbo lag as the petrol car usually don' have turbo unit. Though there are car like Laura TSI which have turbo and/or superchargers but I think you are talking about a normal petrol engine here

    7. #17

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      Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sparrow View Post
      Now as you were talking on some numbers, 1900 is way too high in a Hyundai engine whereas in a Ford, 2000 is not so far because acceleration reaches at 2000 very early compared to reaching at 1900 in Hyundai which takes ages to reach there.
      That's something new for me. I didn't know this. I've driven only hatchbacks. Based on TDs, I thought that only Fords managed to reduce turbo lags to minimum. Then from KunaLsFluidic's posts, I thought I was sleeping while other companies also fixed their turbo lags and now Fords had lost their unique advantage. Now from your post, I realize that Fords have not lost this advantage yet.

      Any idea about Mahindra engines? From TD reports on GH, I read that Mahindras have petrol like driving experience. Is it true? If yes then how so? By shooting to higher RPM quickly?

      So far it looks like that EcoBoost engine may have best of both worlds. Smoothness of a petrol engine, torque & mileage of a diesel engine. No wonder so many companies like Jaguar, Aston Martin, Land Rover have licensed for EcoBoost family of engines.

    8. #18

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      Quote Originally Posted by fordfan View Post
      i also wish they would provide a better engine or at least tune the current 1.5 L engine for more torque / power...but then i guess it will lose out on FE...and in our country, anything which delivers less FE is simply not going to sell beyond us enthusiasts
      Totally agree with fordfan. As far as FE goes, sedans like Verna, Vento, Rapid etc they all provide great FE, so why can't Ford tune their 1.5L diesel engine to achieve more power/torque and FE.


      Quote Originally Posted by fordfan View Post
      btw, lets not knock the Verna please...its a sweet car for city driving and pretty decent highway performer at normal speeds
      I was just comparing the engines, am not comparing a sedan with urban SUV, am just comparing the 1.6L diesel engines of VW, Hyundai and Skoda with Ford. Wouldn't it be great if Ford can tune the engine to at least match 250nm of torque at 1750 rpm without sacrificing any FE. They have done great engineering on the EcoBoost petrol engine of EcoSport, so why not diesel engine as well?
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    9. #19

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      KunaLsFluidic and Jack Sparrow - Please continue the debate in this new thread. There is also a poll, in case you guys want to know what others think. Let me know if you want different poll options.

      And please do not attack each other, instead, bring forth facts and numbers to support any argument you are making. Saying that because I dont see too many numbers being thrown in this argument, except probably the initial power figures quoted by Kunal...
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    10. #20

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      Guys, I googled and found that Ford TDCi is also a member of Fiat's JTD engine family!

      Man! Seriously? Fiat single handedly designed all the diesel engines today? Used by Ford, Suzuki, Chevrolet and Tata! Who is left which doesn't use this family of engine? Hyundai and Mahindra?

      On the topic, I would say that are not even meant to be compared. Ford engines are for city driving and for mountain driving. Hyundai engines are for plain highway driving. Right?

      The reason I didn't do TD of many diesel cars is that I'm a petrolhead. Just love the instant torque and ease of driving in traffic and on mountains. Though I can see that the day is not far when I might convert into a dieselhead. Though it is to be seen if the era of tiny turbo-petrol engines become a fashion, which would be the best. Then the thread of petrol vs diesel will be again hot.

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