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    Thread: Indian Hatchbacks - Performance Shootout!

    1. #1
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      Red face Indian Hatchbacks - Performance Shootout!

      Quote Originally Posted by yzfrj View Post
      Have you ?
      Yes 3 times. I guess Digital Vampire has the equipment for the same. Can you too confirm sir?

      Quote Originally Posted by yzfrj View Post
      So you are saying Fiat does't know how to make gearbox eh ? and also to make cars light weight.
      Point taken. Thanks
      Maruti has given tall gear ratios as the weight of the car is less. Fiat has shorter 1st and 2nd. 3rd gear onwards they are very good. 5th Gear hovers from 60kmph way upto 185kmph.
      0-100 timings are real bad on punto, but good 20-80 timings and also the top speed (not comparing with any other car - before you jump getting in swift)
      All i want to mention is when on the roll the in gear acceleration is very good.

      Light weight car - thats not the concept at all for any of the European manufacturer. I would hate to travel in light flimsy cars.

      Quote Originally Posted by yzfrj View Post
      Point taken. Thanks
      Jumping to conclusion too much early.
      Last edited by Italia-Linea; 27th Jan 2013 at 21:47.

    2. #2
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      Italia-Linea - You didn't answer my previous question about the maps being the same on the Swift and the Punto. Also aren't the Swifts running a Bosch ECU while the Fiats are running a Magnetti Marelli?

      And I totally agree with Ripper. Both the Punto and Linea are awfully slow, no matter how much you try to defend them that's the truth. A 90HP Punto does a 0-100 in late 15 awful seconds. A 75HP in 17 some seconds. Fiats might be having very good steering feedback (Fords have the best), might handle very good (yet beaten by the Fords), decent build quality (again beaten by Skoda and VW). I will not talk about A.S.S. Let me stick to facts!

      Fiat definitely can't seem to get their mapping and gearing right in their cars. Look at what Maruti, Chevrolet and Tata have done with the same engine. The 75HP Punto is such a dud that Fiat had to bring out a 90HP version and even that they screwed it up.

      Don't take me as a Fiat basher. I am just bringing out some facts. Punto is a nice car no doubt, but there is not one arena where it excels. It's like jack of all trades and master of none. Yet, it just doesn't inspire the enthusiast in me when I floor the throttle. The very good chassis, steering feedback, handling, ride quality all seems pointless when the engine feels dead. Same thing, I get into a Swift, everytime I floor the throttle I have wide grin on my face. Yes, the EPS may suck, it might rattle like hell, ride quality maybe horrendous, but by God! When I turn into a corner and floor, it MOVES and goes in the same direction I point it to. Try the same thing on a Punto and you'll be sadly disappointed. But maybe you don't drive like me or Ripper and that's why you love the Punto. But that is no reason to insult someone.

      I am not saying Swift is a better car, infact I've owned one for 3.5yrs and hated everything about the car while I had it. Now that it's gone, I realize how FTD it was though most parts on that car were not upto my standards. Somehow, it makes you smile more than the other cars when pushed hard. I think that is the point Ripper is trying to make.

      And Ripper is probably one of the few guys in India who has modded the 1.3MJD to it's limits and more. If there is any guy who knows that engine, it's him. So cut out your sarcastic and insulting comments. Just shows you in poor light as an insecure fiat fanboy with those unwanted comments! You can do much better than that.

      And again, to what Ripper said about the engine. It's a decent engine, haven't understood in the 3.5yrs I owned a car with the best tune that engine came with what, was so special about it that it won the International Engine of the Year Award. It's noisy, it has a very narrow rev band and almost anything beyond 3,300 RPM were dead revs and has a mind of it's own. If you ever get to drive a Getz CRDi over a long period, you'll understand how a CRDi motor should be built like. Loads of torque, revs neatly to 4500 RPM, less noisier than the Fiat mill, whallops the Fiat mill in every account. But as always being a Korean company, I guess even the Automotive world looks down upon them to the mighty Italians.

      In the current scenario in India, no one can beat Hyundai for enthusiastic common rain diesel engines. Period! They seem to be getting it bang on each time (save the Fluidic Elantra and i20 6-speed). From the time they outsourced their engines from Detroit Diesel. To now, when they are making their own engines. They seem to somehow churn out the best motors in India but fall short on chassis dynamics, suspension and steering feedback (which is non-existent).

      No one can beat Ford for steering feedback and the awesome trade-off between handling and ride comfort. But Ford always skimps on giving us good engines.

      No one can beat VW or Skoda for their tank like build quality. A Polo trumps the Punto (and almost every other hatch) on every aspect except the EPS and the 3-cyl mill if you ask me.

      Each of these companies have their share of flaws and drawbacks. The more graceful we are in accepting them, the more mature our Automotive crowd will be.

      I recently was instrumental in helping bigmoose pick up a Fiat Punto 90HP and his white Punto will be delivered in a few weeks now. We weighed all our options and his needs from the car, eventually we landed at the Punto. Not because it ticked all his needs, but because of lack of other choices. That's a sad state for us enthusiasts indeed. When I realized that Punto was the only option for him, I encouraged him to pick it up. So like I said, don't consider me as a Fiat basher. I am far from that. I believe in calling an apple a apple. And some people don't like me for that

      That said, Fiat is playing it very smart. They want to dominate the CRDi engine market in cars that sell under 15L world over. Fiat is on a rampage to buy out every independent company that manufacturers CRDi motors worldwide. They want all other manufacturers to either start their own Engine R&D and manufacturing facility. Or buy a MJD from Fiat. That seems to be a good strategy that will fetch them money to stay afloat in the business giving how abysmal their car sales figures are atleast in India.

      I suggest you stick to facts, one more insulting commenting against anyone here and this thread is going straight to the looney bin.
      Last edited by mclaren1885; 28th Jan 2013 at 11:16. Reason: Adding more details...
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      Italia-Linea
      Its pretty simple really. Just look at the numbers.

      Toyota Etios 88bhp 0-100 11.4 secs (BS motoring)
      Swift Diesel 72bhp takes 13.87 to 100(ACI)
      Figo Tdci which has 70bhp I think, takes 16.8secs to 100 (has only 2 valves per cylinder- yuck) BS motoring
      The POWERFUL 90bhp Punto takes 16.21 (ACI)
      The fiat Palio MjD 72bhp? I think, takes 17.8secs (ACI)

      Fiat makes slow cars. Even when they supply engines to other manufacturers they get beaten. How sad is that?
      If you'd still like to deny that, I have nothing to say.

      Each car has it's own plus points. The fiats feel great at 160 on a highway, during lane change maneuvers. They feel like tar filled buckets on the ghats.
      The maruti is a little frightening at 160.Ok, terrifying. But on the ghats, its nippy and insane fun
      The figo is not as stable as the fiat on the highway,its more planted than the maruti, but it will run rings around the fiat on a ghat road.
      My driving is mainly in kerala, narrow roads, dense traffic. I want my cars with instant response and chuckability. I'll take the fords and the marutis, thank you.
      If I was based in karnataka and TN surrounded by 6 lane highways, I'd reconsider the fiats.
      Ha! Kidding! I'll never buy a Fiat- Once is enough. I do dream of the Palio 1.6 once in a while, but I'm a stingy overly practical person, so dont thik that will happen either.

      Edit-anyone have timings for the 75bhp Punto that has lots and lots of valves per cylinder?
      Last edited by Ripper; 28th Jan 2013 at 12:16.
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      Swift 75hp 0-100: 13.87secs.
      20-80(3rd):11.96
      40-100(4th):14.72

      Punto 75hp 0-100:17.84
      20-80(3rd):12.57
      40-100(4th):15.22

      Punto 90hp 0-100:16.21
      20-80(3rd):13.97
      40-100(4th):14.72

      Source : ACI

      That should end the debate I hope.
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      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Swift 75hp 0-100: 13.87secs.
      20-80(3rd):11.96
      40-100(4th):14.72

      Punto 75hp 0-100:17.84
      20-80(3rd):12.57
      40-100(4th):15.22

      Punto 90hp 0-100:16.21
      20-80(3rd):13.97
      40-100(4th):14.72

      Source : ACI

      That should end the debate I hope.
      Swift D - 11.96 / 14.72
      Punto 90D - 13.97 / 14.72
      Punto D - 12.57 / 15.22
      Ritz D - 12.52 / 15.36
      Figo D - 13.45 / 16.36
      i20 D - 15.51 / 19.01

      Here is the comparison from the same source ACI

      People call punto a laughingly slow car - can we have a laugh at those guys now?

      0-100 is only slow coz of the weight and 1st and 2nd gear ratios.

      Given the handling and stability of the fiat cars they easly outclass others with similar powers.

      in daily driving on the move 20-80 is more important. 0-100 dash is not the thing that one does again and again.

      Also if you compare top speeds you shall get better picture.
      Last edited by Italia-Linea; 28th Jan 2013 at 12:35.

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Italia-Linea View Post
      People call punto a laughingly slow car - can we have a laugh at those guys now?
      Pardon my ignorance, for a car that has 15HP MORE (17-25% more than the others cars) don't you think those numbers are laughable?

      Quote Originally Posted by Italia-Linea View Post
      0-100 is only slow coz of the weight and 1st and 2nd gear ratios.
      Ok, let me agree with you on that. Can you explain why 3rd and 4th gear roll on figures are slower than the Swift which has 15HP less? We are not even talking about poor gear ratios in this context.

      Quote Originally Posted by Italia-Linea View Post
      Given the handling and stability of the fiat cars they easly outclass others with similar powers
      Outclass where? The Polo feels most stable at those speeds. The Swift doesn't feel out of place at those speeds if it's properly tyred. Let's cut the chase to the real cars. Punto, Swift, Polo, Figo. All of them handle well at high speeds. So what's your point?

      Or do you want to feel good comparing the Punto to cars like Ritz?

      Quote Originally Posted by Italia-Linea View Post
      in daily driving on the move 20-80 is more important
      Right, even there Swift, Punto 75HP, Ritz D, Figo D are faster than the 90HP. So what's your point again?

      Quote Originally Posted by Italia-Linea View Post
      0-100 dash is not the thing that one does again and again.
      Heard that one before. The best excuse one finds if a car they swear by does not have a good 0-100 timing.

      Italia - If you haven't realized, you are digging yourself a deeper grave each time you try to defend your statements
      2002 Tata Indica DLS.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Italia-Linea View Post
      Swift D - 11.96 / 14.72
      Punto 90D - 13.97 / 14.72
      Punto D - 12.57 / 15.22
      Ritz D - 12.52 / 15.36
      Figo D - 13.45 / 16.36
      i20 D - 15.51 / 19.01

      Here is the comparison from the same source ACI

      People call punto a laughingly slow car - can we have a laugh at those guys now?

      0-100 is only slow coz of the weight and 1st and 2nd gear ratios.

      Given the handling and stability of the fiat cars they easly outclass others with similar powers.

      in daily driving on the move 20-80 is more important. 0-100 dash is not the thing that one does again and again.

      Also if you compare top speeds you shall get better picture.
      Dude! I don't get it.
      The figures you posted about your darlings are also slow. What are you crowing about ? The swift has the Punto 90 and the regular Punto whipped.
      The Figo has only two valves per cylinder, and its still only half a second slower than the "Sport" model
      In fact you will not see the Figo owners crying and pulling their hair out when someone calls their cars slow. We know its slow, we accept its slow. The numbers are there to see.
      I don't see the same response from fiat fanboys.
      In your own post, you admit that the 0-100 is slow, then you go on to justify that it is because of the gear ratios. Stop making excuses. Your darling Punto sport is slow, the regular punto is slow, the Figo is slow too . We all like slow cars. Just don't pick a slow car and call it fast. When you do that, your encouraging me to troll.
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      Supernaut, the Enfield is different. The Enfield fans are different too. They know their vehicles shortcomings, and accept them.
      They don't go claiming that their bikes are fast. You like the bike for it's character. You forgive it's shortcomings, but you definitely do not hide its faults and get offended if someone calls you out. That's the difference between Fiat fanboys and fans of any other brand.

      Here you can see Italia-Linea posting numbers that reinforce the fact that the car is slow, then he does a complete U -turn within that same post and claims that they're fast.

      Performance wise, the Fiats are nothing special, just like Figos, or Indicas.
      Fiats have character(I can't say I like the character) but they do have character, and that is why some people are crazy about them. But it should end there. Fans shouldn't mix up character with cold hard numbers.
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      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Swift 75hp 0-100: 13.87secs.
      20-80(3rd):11.96
      40-100(4th):14.72

      Punto 75hp 0-100:17.84
      20-80(3rd):12.57
      40-100(4th):15.22

      Punto 90hp 0-100:16.21
      20-80(3rd):13.97
      40-100(4th):14.72

      Source : ACI
      Any car that is faster than Punto is not safe for Indian roads. Any car slower is just 'slowcoach'

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ripper View Post
      Here you can see Italia-Linea posting numbers that reinforce the fact that the car is slow, then he does a complete U -turn within that same post and claims that they're fast.
      Dude can you please read my post again? The figures posted here does not say punto is laughingly slow - they sentence which won you the laughter challenge title.

      I am not at all saying its faster on paper , apart from i20 diesel. Swift is obviously fast. Figo is obviously slow so is punto.

      But its not that slow as you are potraying it.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Ok i got to stop laughing in my office and refreshing pages

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