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    Thread: Mahindra - Are they any good?

    1. #61
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      Quote Originally Posted by anand_h View Post
      Design is a very subjective topic.
      As you have already suggested that design is subjective topic. So we will not discuss about this.

      Quote Originally Posted by anand_h View Post
      All I'm saying is with the kind of resources available at M&M, I am sure they are capable of launching some truly outstanding automobiles.
      There are great hardworking people now days working for Mahindra to make it better company and to provide better support.

      My family owns Mahindra during the time when word "Customer Orientation and Satisfaction" was alien to Indian market.
      My Vehicles

      In those days, were literally paying up the bribe all day to get our vehicle service on time. After reaching to service station taking all/few mechanics for chai-pani-tambaku so that they can work on Jeep on faster pace. By the end of the day if vehicle is not washed due to their leaving time, paying them 20-30 Rs so that they can wash their vehicle. Behaviour of service station clerk / accountant was like a SBI clerk.

      Things really started getting changed after 1995 when suddenly there was boom in automobile industry. Mahindra showrooms equipped themselves with variety of vehicles like Armada, Classic, Voyager, Marshal.

      The options in stable were just not enough to pull the customers. There were other changes made into the system like polite behaviour of staff. In 2001, when Anand Mahindra joined M&M in passenger division, many pleasant changes were brought in the culture. We customers were being greeted by Namaste and building a waiting lounge for customers with TV was a welcome move. I am not sure about big cities but above experience are gained from few tier 2 cities.

      In all these years, I've owned many Mahindra vehicles one after one but believe me I never repented on my decision so far.

      Any vehicle by any manufacturer is not defect free but once problem is detected, attitude of service centre and manufacturer comes into play. I don't want to comment about others but am very pleased with warranty issues Mahindra has handled.

      Apart from few not up-to-the-mark experiences with ground force,upper management was always cooperative.

    2. #62

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      Quote Originally Posted by shashanka View Post
      Beg to differ anand_h - and am I right in assuming that you are a FWD devotee? I see no other reason why the Lodgy would be considered a VFM proposition. If you had mentioned the Innova in the same breath, I wouldn't argue. But the Lodgy? Come,come!

      This might be going somewhat OT, but I'll take the risk considering anand_h's sweeping generalization re. M&M!

      A FWD layout in that W.B. (the Lodgy at 2810 mm) is a hoot. And that holds for all the FWDers in that W.B. range (~2750 mm to ~2850 mm) - Camry, Accord, Sonata, Teana, Superb, Scala et al.
      Alec Issigonis did a major favour to us mere mortals when he introduced the Mini & it went on to become an icon. But as often happens, the bean counters got into the action and decided that FWD was the way to go for everything from the American goliaths (Olds 'Tornado' and Cadillac 'El Dorado', both at 18+ ft length) right down to the mini at 10.25 ft length.
      If you are really keen, one can go into the nitty-gritty of the steering/traction/handling shortcomings of large W.B. FWDers. But it is generally accepted that FWD is ideal for W.Bases < 2.4m, having short overhangs - in other words the popular hatch-back country! Upto this point it is good engineering design. When you start exceeding this W.B but stick to FWD, engineering progressively takes a back seat and the bean-counters have taken over. The great advantage of the FWD lay-out is its neat, compact packaging, ideal for mass production at greatly reduced cost.

      The Lodgy (like most of the large FWD offerings) has remained a non-starter whereas the Innova/Crysta has gone into the sales stratosphere, comparatively speaking. And for this reason, quite a few of the FWD brigade have offered AWD options on their FWD models in the developed markets (Audi sedans with their quattro option, the Skoda Octavia, VW with their 4motion option and even our humble XUV500, which was initially offered with FWD only!). In the Indian car market, where savvy car-ownership is a vague concept (kitna deti hai, being a common refrain) it is to be expected that the MNC's would launch products (like the recent fiasco with the Renault Captur/Kaptur) hoping that the Indian hilly-billy would swallow their fairy tales.

      With the above in view, I am firmly in the M&M corner - more specifically their rugged, abuse-friendly, body-on-chassis SUVs.
      Way off-topic. I'm talking about product innovation.

      While the Scorpio way back in 2002 was an absolute eye-opener to all and a great product. So was the XUV500.
      But between all of that, M&M has simply lost the plot. The other home grown products could have been way better.

      It was only after the Sumo was dethroned by the Qualis, and finally when the Qualis was discontinued - did the Bolero sales pick-up. The Bolero is very much an upgraded Armada. I still remember one of my clients had a Bolero and Santro to drop guests back to the guesthouse. And almost everybody would run towards the Santro.

      Also, the Toyota Innova at a starting price of 18 lakhs OTR is NOT a value proposition.
      2003 Hyundai Santro Zip Plus LS - 101,000 kms
      2015 Maruti Suzuki Ritz LDi - 132,000 kms
      2015 Honda City iVtec V - 16,000 kms
      2017 Yamaha Ray ZR - 950 kms

    3. #63
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      Quote Originally Posted by s13 View Post
      .......There are great hardworking people now days working for Mahindra to make it better company and to provide better support.......I've owned many Mahindra vehicles one after one but believe me I never repented on my decision so far.
      Any vehicle by any manufacturer is not defect free but once problem is detected, attitude of service centre and manufacturer comes into play. I don't want to comment about others but am very pleased with warranty issues Mahindra has handled.
      Apart from few not up-to-the-mark experiences with ground force,upper management was always cooperative.
      Well said s13. The fact is that Anand Mahindra brought a breath of fresh air into the stuffiness of M&M's board-room. He appears to have given a freer hand to the engineers & stylists than before. They introduced Exh. Gas re-circulation for the first time in a main stream product (the Scorpio) in India and also introduced twin scroll t/charging in the 3-pot engine of the Quanto. And despite all the brickbats the Quanto recieved for its ugly duckling styling (all well-deserved by the way!) there was genuine appreciation for its engine - for the great NVH levels & for the extra-ordinary output/engine displacement at the time.


      Quote Originally Posted by anand_h View Post
      .......... The Bolero is very much an upgraded Armada. I still remember one of my clients had a Bolero and Santro to drop guests back to the guesthouse. And almost everybody would run towards the Santro.
      Also, the Toyota Innova at a starting price of 18 lakhs OTR is NOT a value proposition.
      I can quote dozens of repeat customers for the Bolero who wouldn't opt for anything else....

      And as for the Innova, the following from AutoCar April '15 should help clear the air :

      "Renault has priced the Lodgy in the range of Rs 8.19 – 10.89 lakh (ex-showroom, Delhi) for the 84bhp version, and Rs 10.09 – 11.79 lakh for the 108.5bhp version. The Innova, on the other hand, is way more expensive, starting at Rs 12.54 lakh, and going up to Rs 15.81 lakh."

      The article compared the 108 bhp Lodgy with the 84 bhp Innova. And despite all the perceived VFM proposition that the Lodgy was gunning for, it remained a non-starter. And in my view a major reason for its failure was its FWD lay-out. If Renault had introduced the Lodgy with RWD, it would probably have been priced out of the segment!
      Anonymous cynic, possibly George Bernard Shaw, quoted frequently - "The more I see of some folks, the better I love my dogs"

    4. #64

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      Quote Originally Posted by shashanka View Post
      Well said s13. The fact is that Anand Mahindra brought a breath of fresh air into the stuffiness of M&M's board-room. He appears to have given a freer hand to the engineers & stylists than before. They introduced Exh. Gas re-circulation for the first time in a main stream product (the Scorpio) in India and also introduced twin scroll t/charging in the 3-pot engine of the Quanto. And despite all the brickbats the Quanto recieved for its ugly duckling styling (all well-deserved by the way!) there was genuine appreciation for its engine - for the great NVH levels & for the extra-ordinary output/engine displacement at the time.




      I can quote dozens of repeat customers for the Bolero who wouldn't opt for anything else....

      And as for the Innova, the following from AutoCar April '15 should help clear the air :

      "Renault has priced the Lodgy in the range of Rs 8.19 – 10.89 lakh (ex-showroom, Delhi) for the 84bhp version, and Rs 10.09 – 11.79 lakh for the 108.5bhp version. The Innova, on the other hand, is way more expensive, starting at Rs 12.54 lakh, and going up to Rs 15.81 lakh."

      The article compared the 108 bhp Lodgy with the 84 bhp Innova. And despite all the perceived VFM proposition that the Lodgy was gunning for, it remained a non-starter. And in my view a major reason for its failure was its FWD lay-out. If Renault had introduced the Lodgy with RWD, it would probably have been priced out of the segment!
      A sad article to end this thread: XUV500: Severe crash, but not a single airbag deployed (driver injured) - Team-BHP

      Also the on-road prices in Bombay are as follows:

      Renault Lodgy (85 BHP) : 10.40 to 13.74 lakhs
      Renault Lodgy (110 BHP) : 13.64 to 15.06 lakhs
      Toyota Innova (150 BHP) : 18.32 to 24.99 lakhs

      Note: I have only considered the manual diesel variants.

      I don't see how having the Innova as RWD would be the reason for people to prefer it. After all it handles like a boat.

      Also if buyers were really sensible in the Indian market and if we had stricter crash regulations, Maruti Suzuki wouldn't have sold a single car in the market. And the Kwid would have been banned.

      Yes, I have a Ritz. And I use it as a beater.
      2003 Hyundai Santro Zip Plus LS - 101,000 kms
      2015 Maruti Suzuki Ritz LDi - 132,000 kms
      2015 Honda City iVtec V - 16,000 kms
      2017 Yamaha Ray ZR - 950 kms

    5. #65
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      ^^^ If there were stricter safety regulations, Princess Diana wouldn't have died - when the grim reaper is waiting in the wings, all the safety in the world won't save a poor sod!

      And if you use the Ritz as a beater, then (again assuming you are a FWD devotee) you probably have a large FWDer as the principal ride. Well, your choice I'm sure.

      You forgot to add - it is the Crysta that starts at 18.32 L, not that old beater Innova. Any real buff knows the difference between RWDers & FWDers, monocoques & body-on-chassis - and why the Innova had left all its segment wannabes in the dust.
      Anonymous cynic, possibly George Bernard Shaw, quoted frequently - "The more I see of some folks, the better I love my dogs"

    6. #66

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      Quote Originally Posted by shashanka View Post
      ^^^ If there were stricter safety regulations, Princess Diana wouldn't have died - when the grim reaper is waiting in the wings, all the safety in the world won't save a poor sod!

      And if you use the Ritz as a beater, then (again assuming you are a FWD devotee) you probably have a large FWDer as the principal ride. Well, your choice I'm sure.

      You forgot to add - it is the Crysta that starts at 18.32 L, not that old beater Innova. Any real buff knows the difference between RWDers & FWDers, monocoques & body-on-chassis - and why the Innova had left all its segment wannabes in the dust.
      My issue is the lacklustre in Mahindra's R&D with the kind of resources at their disposal. And NOT the Crysta setting the sales chart on fire due to it being a RWD. We could set-up a new thread for that discussion.
      2003 Hyundai Santro Zip Plus LS - 101,000 kms
      2015 Maruti Suzuki Ritz LDi - 132,000 kms
      2015 Honda City iVtec V - 16,000 kms
      2017 Yamaha Ray ZR - 950 kms

    7. #67
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      Unfortunately no other domestic major, apart from M&M, has a core R&D section worth the name. TML has one now, after the acquisition of JLR. I guess you didn't read my earlier posts here or maybe you glossed over it. R&D does not mean providing smart phone connectivity or 7''/9'' UI screens or "user friendly" plastic interiors or ORVMs with flashing indicators.

      About the core utility of air-bags (very different from their current flavour of the season with both mfrs & customers trying to keep up with the Jones') I have mentioned earlier on other forums - there are scores of incidents involving MNC vehicles where they have failed to deploy in actual accident scenarios (the relevant press is replete with reports).

      As distinct from the beautifully choreographed videos of slow motion depictions of dummies being knocked about & getting "saved" by equally prompt inflation of airbags! One of the more memorable cases (reported in another forum) involved a Mercedes S class in India, where the owner died in the accident because the airbags failed to deploy.

      And all the gobble-de-gook put out by manufacturers & vendors (about threshold speeds & off-set impacts and seat-belt triggers) is just so much hot air - the above mentioned Mercedes was travelling at over 80 kmph at the time.
      Anonymous cynic, possibly George Bernard Shaw, quoted frequently - "The more I see of some folks, the better I love my dogs"

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