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    Thread: Yamaha vs Denon vs Marantz vs Onkyo vs NAD vs Pioneer AVRs

    1. #21

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      With AVRs don't go by the RMS listing. Most brands hide the fact that the RMS rating on entry to mid level AVRs are usually in 2-channel mode and will be much lower in multi channel mode. A true multi channel all channels driven at say around 50 to 60 watt RMS will need a very very hefty transformer.

      Generally Yamaha AVRs are a bit shy on the bass front, Pioneers traditionally have more slam. Denon and Marantz are from the same stable.

      AVRs are ok for casual music listening. The Yamaha and Marantz are ok in pure direct mode.

      If budget is a limitation, I would suggest pick a AV Receiver that is 3 to 4 year old model so that you can go higher up in the series of whichever brand you choose.

      In movie delivery power maters a lot.
      Car Audio: 4-way active
      Home Audio: Passive

    2. #22
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      Went to a store nearby home in Kolkata called Harmonies Audio. It's a 2BHK home with two rooms dedicated for audition. He was selling all the brands but had Pioneer and Denon for audition. Denon 2133 and Pioneer 303.

      Pioneer being a 9.2 channel had certainly more power and it blew Denon away without any question. He had an Elac sub and Q Acoustics as 5 channel speaker set. Pioneer sounded clearer and had better surround separation.

      I wish to audition an simple HTiB also - just want to see how bad they are compared to a custom setup.

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      He had a custom room decor to make these sound like a theater, I am going to place these in an open drawing room. Some of the finer details will anyway be lost. I need to keep that thought in mind.

    3. #23
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      Yesterday - I went to couple of more shops. One is Southern Avenue and another near Behala. Forgot the names.

      Both were same in design and structure. 2BHK/3BHK house converter to audio demo. Themselves, they don't have lot of stock and most of the items are on order. Saw a tube amp too - turned my head away before it could impress me. I don't want to go towards that.

      Took demo of Denon 2400, Yamaha 685, Pioneer 933, Onkyo RZ620. No Marantz. One of the had Sony, which I missed to audition out of excitement or may be I simply forgot. Anyway.

      All of them were good. Nothing that I can saw was thoroughly disappointing. BUT. There is always a but. More I listen to Denon, more it feels that it is hyped. Denon 2400 was the least impressive among all these. Denon and Onkyo were with Polk Audio setup and KEF sub. I forgot to check the speaker config for Yamaha and Pioneer demo. There were lot of speakers lying around and I wasn't sure which he had connected for demo. I did ask and he answered, but I don't know what his answer was.

      Denon seemed short on power or not clear enough on mids. Vocals specially. Later on, I was told that Denon has a feature to up the vocals, but I don't know if it was turned on or not. Yamaha 685 was nice, had good power and it felt little sharp. Seemed little EQ tuning will help. Pioneer, and Yamaha were very close, denon was close too - can't pick any one of them just on sheer demo. Pioneer though, did sound very balanced across the range.

      That Onkyo RZ620 stood out. It was Jurassic World, the new one, where the girl running with flare in her hand and dinosaur is following her (towards the end). It felt so exciting to feel the thumps and beats of every footstep from that Dinosaur. The lovely clarity and sound that was very fulfilling.

      I am beginning to think of Pioneer and Onkyo - both are Japanese and sister brands. Apparently, in 2015, Pioneer was sold to Onkyo. Their sound clarity and power delivery is not something that disappoints. I am very impressed.

      How true these demos could be? Isn't it easy for the seller to tune the system to favour the product which he has high commissions on? This is not exactly a TD of a car, isn't it?

      What all this demo has done - it has confused me even further. Earlier, I had to chose between Denon/Yamaha/Marantz - now even Onkyo and Pioneer have started showing promising. I am also thinking to audition Sony DN1080 - has great reviews and @Dr.Lakshya already bought it after his research.

    4. #24

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      Quote Originally Posted by rksingh1 View Post
      Yesterday - I went to couple of more shops. One is Southern Avenue and another near Behala. Forgot the names.

      Both were same in design and structure. 2BHK/3BHK house converter to audio demo. Themselves, they don't have lot of stock and most of the items are on order. Saw a tube amp too - turned my head away before it could impress me. I don't want to go towards that.

      Took demo of Denon 2400, Yamaha 685, Pioneer 933, Onkyo RZ620. No Marantz. One of the had Sony, which I missed to audition out of excitement or may be I simply forgot. Anyway.

      All of them were good. Nothing that I can saw was thoroughly disappointing. BUT. There is always a but. More I listen to Denon, more it feels that it is hyped. Denon 2400 was the least impressive among all these. Denon and Onkyo were with Polk Audio setup and KEF sub. I forgot to check the speaker config for Yamaha and Pioneer demo. There were lot of speakers lying around and I wasn't sure which he had connected for demo. I did ask and he answered, but I don't know what his answer was.

      Denon seemed short on power or not clear enough on mids. Vocals specially. Later on, I was told that Denon has a feature to up the vocals, but I don't know if it was turned on or not. Yamaha 685 was nice, had good power and it felt little sharp. Seemed little EQ tuning will help. Pioneer, and Yamaha were very close, denon was close too - can't pick any one of them just on sheer demo. Pioneer though, did sound very balanced across the range.

      That Onkyo RZ620 stood out. It was Jurassic World, the new one, where the girl running with flare in her hand and dinosaur is following her (towards the end). It felt so exciting to feel the thumps and beats of every footstep from that Dinosaur. The lovely clarity and sound that was very fulfilling.

      I am beginning to think of Pioneer and Onkyo - both are Japanese and sister brands. Apparently, in 2015, Pioneer was sold to Onkyo. Their sound clarity and power delivery is not something that disappoints. I am very impressed.

      How true these demos could be? Isn't it easy for the seller to tune the system to favour the product which he has high commissions on? This is not exactly a TD of a car, isn't it?

      What all this demo has done - it has confused me even further. Earlier, I had to chose between Denon/Yamaha/Marantz - now even Onkyo and Pioneer have started showing promising. I am also thinking to audition Sony DN1080 - has great reviews and @Dr.Lakshya already bought it after his research.
      Just for you to know, the Chinese company TCL has taken over pioneer and onkyo everywhere in the world except Japan and takes care of the manufacturing.
      Also I have read many reviews of pioneer and onkyos failing (seemed to me more faliures than other brands). No personal experience in this regard so do the research before you go for these brands.
      I think the comparison would be fair if same speakers were used for all the avrs auditioned.

      Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dr.lakshay View Post
      I think the comparison would be fair if same speakers were used for all the avrs auditioned.
      This is not that easy with different shops having different setups. Thouh I do try to auditon two AVRs with same setup.

      What are the brands you had auditioned Doc before finalizing?

    6. #26
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      Quote Originally Posted by rksingh1 View Post
      Isn't it easy for the seller to tune the system to favour the product which he has high commissions on? This is not exactly a TD of a car, isn't it?
      In short, it isn't as simple as you think Whatever he tunes room acoustics, Receiver capability, Source Material, Interconnects and Speaker capability plays a lot of role in that. He can't just like that do some fancy tune to make a average speaker sound very good. At the same time, however good a Receiver or Speaker is, if poorly placed in a room with bad acoustics, it will sound crap. Everything matters. Its not just so easy to simply tune something and make it sound good

      As mentioned by Doc, before zeroing in on a Receiver, do see if you can audition with the same set of speakers. Again am repeating, zero-in on the speakers first and then go with the receiver. The receiver whatever you buy *IF* it couldn't be paired with your speakers, then there's no point.

      Most Audio shop guys will have all these brands (if not atleast majority of these receivers), so do request them to get that brand and go ahead with your auditions. Good Luck with your purchase

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    7. #27
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      Quote Originally Posted by rksingh1 View Post
      It felt so exciting to feel the thumps and beats of every footstep from that Dinosaur.
      And AVR has nothing to do with those beats and thumpings, its all taken care by the subwoofer which has inbuilt amp. If you liked those beats and thumpings then it means you liked that particular sub, it's placement, and your seating position in that particular room.


      Quote Originally Posted by Dr.lakshay View Post
      I think the comparison would be fair if same speakers were used for all the avrs auditioned.
      Quote Originally Posted by Lvramanan View Post
      In short, it isn't as simple as you think
      Exactly.


      Quote Originally Posted by rksingh1 View Post
      Thouh I do try to auditon two AVRs with same setup.
      Thats the right way. And it would be better to test different AVRs with flat EQ setting connected with a powerful speaker set which is capable of handling reasonable range of low frequencies. But test the setup without sub. Also turn the LFE bypass setting off on the AVR, means let the low frequency pass to the speakers.

    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jack Sparrow View Post
      And AVR has nothing to do with those beats and thumpings
      Sorry, if I wasn't clear earlier. I had seen the same Jurassic world scene with both Denon and Onkyo with the same speaker and room setup, only the cables were plugged in from on to anther. And in that aspect the Onkyo had sounded more fulfilling. Again, I didn't check what tune or EQ they were set on to. It could very well be that Onkyo AVR was properly caliberated and Denon wasn't. There is always some agenda with dealers and what they want to push out to consumer.

      After quite a handful of research (though, not exhaustive), I am beginning to feel that the variation from one brand to another in SQ and features isn't really that high, unless your start knit-picking.

      If you pick models from all these premium brands of a similar price range, they turn out to be almost equal with minor plus/minus, which indicate that you can't actually go wrong with any one them. Doc mentioned of TCL owning Pioneer and Onkyo, which is a news good to know - it doesn't directly indicate anything wrong with the company or brand itself. We'd surprised of how many electronics companies are directly or indirectly owned by Chinese.

      What is important to understand is the variation of different series that these companies have in the market. Here is a simple example: (I am writing it down so that it is handy for me as well)

      1. Denon : It has a premium AVR-X series and normal AVR-S series. I'd feel that entry level AVR-X series will be comparable to a upper-mid level AVR-S series model.

      2. Yamaha : AVENTAGE is the premium range, model numbers will be RX-Axxx. Then comes RX-V which is mid range, RX-S is mid range with slim profile and TSR, which is somewhat lower range but comparable.

      3. Marantz : SR series is premium and NR series is normal.

      4. Onkyo : RZ is premium, NR is mid and SR is value range.

      5. Pioneer : Elite SC is top of the tree, Elite VSX - upper mid category, and VSX is the value range.

      AVR-X is comparable to AVENTAGE, and thats comparable to SR, RZ and Elite series. Round about. Can't take one to one comparison. Example, AVENTAGE entry model (A680) starts at the mid level of AVR-X and Marantz is placed little higher up.


      Quote Originally Posted by Lvramanan View Post
      Again am repeating, zero-in on the speakers first
      I have kind of made up my mind to pick ELAC Debut 2.0 6 or 5 series speakers. Sadly, none of the places I could audition them so far. Few more places to cover. Bangalore has better options to audition, not so much in Kolkata. Online reviews, aren't that many but some forums do help.

    9. #29
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      Quote Originally Posted by rksingh1 View Post
      Online reviews, aren't that many but some forums do help.
      When it comes to Speakers. Trust no one except your own ears.

      Quote Originally Posted by rksingh1 View Post
      If you pick models from all these premium brands of a similar price range, they turn out to be almost equal with minor plus/minus, which indicate that you can't actually go wrong with any one them.
      +100. BUT each one have their own signature which I believe you would've already noticed. Delivery of sound and tonality will vary from one brand to another.

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    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lvramanan View Post
      When it comes to Speakers. Trust no one except your own ears.
      similar to this rule, some more facts are

      (1) We always tend to over estimate and under utilize the assets or items we buy

      (2) Simplicity is ultimate sophistication, lesser is better, subtraction actually adds more value than addition to a complex activity.

      (3) anything which is at home must be operable by the grand mother and not just the smart kid, more complex the system is, this is not achievable

      (4) Electronics at home should be as less visible as possible. ensure this before buying stuff, because it just loses 50% value as soon as you pay for it.

      (5) Every Hobby or Special Interest centered around devices, wanes after a while, so decide how much money you need to spend on it.

      (6) Think, what will happen when there is an issue or equipment needs repairs ? unless it is easy to answer this question, never buy stuff.

      Last edited by Nomad; 17th Apr 2019 at 19:20.

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