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    Thread: Swift v/s Sail

    1. #1
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      Swift v/s Sail

      The Swifts loses out on 3 important factors that should matter to enthusiasts, irrespective of performance:
      * Handling on rough patches. The Sail drives like a heavier car on the highway.
      * Sail's stiffer Suspension will allow it corner better.
      * Sail isn't going to rattle like the Swift. A big boon to ICE modders.

      But the enthusiast buyer is a minority. Majority are going to buy the Sail for its space in the front and in the back.
      Last edited by mclaren1885; 11th Dec 2012 at 23:08. Reason: Moved on request of OP from the Sail U-VA review thread.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      Handling on rough patches. The Sail drives like a heavier car on the highway.
      * Sail's stiffer Suspension will allow it corner better.
      * Sail isn't going to rattle like the Swift. A big boon to ICE modders.
      Disagree on all 3 points.

      If a vehicle handles rough patches better, it will not corner better. Only few cars under 20L have managed to find a fine balance between ride quality and handling. Polo/Vento, Figo/Fiesta, Punto/Linea, Octavia/Laura.

      For a car to be able to corner better, it needs two important things. A good chassis which the Sail lacks. And a good suspension. On both counts the Swift is far superior to the Sail. You will never be able to throw/chuck a Sail into corners like a Swift/Polo/Figo/Punto.

      I can bet my life the Sail is going to rattle as much as the Swift by just touching and feeling the plastics. Heck, have you seen how much the Cruze rattles? Preventing rattles isn't the forte of the new Chevys!
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      Swift v/s Sail

      thecdkfactor drove the Sail at 155Kmph(it could touch 165kmph if not for the traffic) on the Chennai Bypass road between Maduravoyal and Puzal. This stretch has a curve where the road is heavily sheared and also has patches. Based on my 3yrs of driving a stock Swift, I strongly felt the Sail did that curve far better than my Swift could have. This curve isn't angled in... it was nearly flat and I would never be confident taking a swift into such rough curves. This is just my opinion based on my short TD earlier and sitting in the rear when Dinesh ripped it on the bypass road. Anandv267 was also in the car could possibly share his feedback on this.
      Last edited by mclaren1885; 11th Dec 2012 at 12:02. Reason: Moved on request of OP.

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      I have driven the swift quite a lot and the sail is at least as good as the swift in stability and stuff. I am not exactly a fast driver but I do maintain good speeds when roads permit. The sail was pretty darn stable on the roads on which I wouldn take a swift at speeds excess of 120.

      Well maybe when it comes to proper ghats the swift may turn out to be better. But on roads with long sweeping curves the sail is good. Very good
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      Quote Originally Posted by Anandv267 View Post
      I have driven the swift quite a lot and the sail is at least as good as the swift in stability and stuff. I am not exactly a fast driver but I do maintain good speeds when roads permit. The sail was pretty darn stable on the roads on which I wouldn take a swift at speeds excess of 120.

      Well maybe when it comes to proper ghats the swift may turn out to be better. But on roads with long sweeping curves the sail is good. Very good
      I owned a 2008 model Swift till Aug this year and drove it for 90,000 km, with some very long drives on both flat highways in places like Rajasthan and in the mountains of Uttarakhand and Hiomachal. All I can say is that the Swift is a real cracker of a car. No other car gives that sort of driving pleasure on any sort of road- you can corner with ease in it, and on flat roads, you can pretty much race anything except some really powerful vehicles. Even the overall quality of plastics in the old Swift was very decent compared to the the Sai. The Saill is superb in regard to the way it behaves, in that the engine feels very similar in tune to the Swift, giving that same sort of rush once the car hits 1800 to 2000 RPM. However, the interiors clearly give one a feel of corners having been cut. Cornering and other stuff can only be tested once you actually drive on a road that allows for these attributes to be tested.

      I really hope there are some improvements in the Sail sedan, else, I would sadly have to abandon this car as an option.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      Based on my 3yrs of driving a stock Swift
      Which tyres were you running?

      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      This stretch has a curve where the road is heavily sheared and also has patches
      By that I understand the road is not smooth? If you have a patchy road, then the horrendously stiff suspension of the Swift will make you feel nervous. Only a car with a much softer suspension will make you feel planted on a patchy road.

      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      I strongly felt the Sail did that curve far better than my Swift could have. This curve isn't angled in... it was nearly flat and I would never be confident taking a swift into such rough curves.
      That's the beauty of the Swift. The chassis is so beautiful yet light at the same time, that it lets you "throw/chuck" the car into corners. You will feel that the Swift might just fly off because it feels so light and not make it past the bend, but the mechanical grip and chassis rigidity will amaze you each time and put a smile on your face that very few other cars will when taken to the limits.

      The reason you might have felt the Sail to be better has a lot to do with the way the engine is tuned. Say you have a 100mtrs straight leading to a sharp corner, the Swift will accelerate harder as you approach the corner carrying far more speed and will still have enough power to give you a rush as you throttle through the corner. Which also means, through the straight and the corner the Swift is usually carrying far higher speeds and thus will make you want to back off earlier or feel more nervous because of the higher speeds you are carrying into the corner. Then comes in the complex factor of weight transfer. A car with non-linear acceleration will shift weight more quickly between the front and the rear of the car. That adds to the nervousness one feels as well if you don't understand the dynamics of weight transfer.

      While the Sail is lethargic at best. It will crawl to the corner and given the way it's power delivery is refined and flat, throughout the corner it will not let you feel a sense of acceleration the Swift will give you, making you feel more in control in the Sail. Also the weight transfer is a lot lesser pronounce in a car that accelerates linearly. The outcome (in terms of trap speed out of the corner) will be quite contrasting between both the cars.

      Power delivery plays a crucial role in how car feels while cornering. Smoother power delivery, the saner, the more calmer the car feels. If the power delivery is brutal or non-linear, then the car feels like you can lose control easier. At this point is where the chassis rigidity and mechanical grip comes into the equation if you are brave enough to keep the throttle pressed down.

      Best way to find out is do a back-to-back drive in both the cars when they are adequately tyred and push them to the limits to understand the handling capabilities. You will notice a stark difference in both.

      Eg: We used to do Nandi Hill night drives a lot a few years back. While Tadu would be screaming down the ghats in the Elantra and me in the Baleno and Shyam in the Getz CRDi, Anup in his stock Swift P with Yokohama AD-07s would be right with us without doing any drama. Infact, he rarely had to even brake for the corners while the rest of us would be destroying our brake pads. He just had to turn the steering and keep the throttle pressed. I think poor KRRaj had the fortune of sitting with Dark_Light on one of those night drives and came out all shivering

      The mechanical grip and the chuckability factor the Swift can give can be outdone by just one car amongst the hatches, the Figo!
      Last edited by mclaren1885; 11th Dec 2012 at 00:26. Reason: Adding more info.
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      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      came out all shivering
      Eh no.. First time in such high speeds yeah, but nope, did not come out shivering...
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      mclaren1885, nobody is arguing mechanical engg. or physics right now. The point I was stressing is that the Sail gives the driver confidence which the twitchy paper light Swift does not. Hold the Swift door open in hand and the Sail door in the other. The Sail door feels heavier and better built. This is crucial on our suicidal roads where undulations occur at unexpected spots.

      You make the difference in performance of the 2 cars sound as large but it is not. The Sail defintely does not crawl into a corner... Anyhow, as I said before, performance means nothing in this segment. Its either mileage(Indica), looks (Swift), VFM(Figo), Space, Practicality etc that will define success. We all know this so no point in talking about performance...

      I mean Duster, Ertiga, Elantra are not enthusiast cars. But they are ruling the roost.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      The Swifts loses out on 3 important factors that should matter to enthusiasts, irrespective of performance:
      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      Sail's stiffer Suspension will allow it corner better.
      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      mclaren1885, nobody is arguing mechanical engg. or physics right now.
      Sorry Madhu, I wasn't the one who compared the Swift and the Sail keeping in mind the *enthusiasts*, you did.

      Since you mentioned "enthusiasts", I just told you the difference between the two cars with regards to physics/mechanics.

      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      The point I was stressing is that the Sail gives the driver confidence which the twitchy paper light Swift does not
      A slower car will always give you better confidence. The Swift being twitchy is just the same as the Cruze being twitchy thanks to the extremely stiff suspension. That is the point I am making. Twitchy does not translate to slow. It just requires better skill. Again I am talking from the POV of an enthusiast, since you floated that point.

      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      You make the difference in performance of the 2 cars sound as large but it is not. The Sail defintely does not crawl into a corner
      I am assuming that you are comparing the Old Swift to the Sail-UVA since I remember you mentioning somewhere recently that you hadn't driven the New Swift (which is a dud in terms of performance btw). Just to put things into perspective with some 0-100 figures:

      Old Swift D - 13.87 secs.
      New Swift D - 14.8 secs.
      Sail U-VA D - 15.2 secs.

      Just to give you some perspective 0-100 timings of a stock Cruze is 10.22 secs while a re-mapped Cruze with 50bhp and a ton of torque more is 9.12 seconds. The difference only gets higher as you climb speeds further. So yes, a Sail will crawl when compared to the Old Swift.

      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      Anyhow, as I said before, performance means nothing in this segment
      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      The Swifts loses out on 3 important factors that should matter to enthusiasts, irrespective of performance:
      Precisely why I did not compare the Sail with any other car. It is not for an enthusiast, period. And performance and handling are always co-related FYI.

      Quote Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
      I mean Duster, Ertiga, Elantra are not enthusiast cars. But they are ruling the roost.
      Again, I wasn't the one who talked about differences between any two cars from an enthusiasts perspective. You seem to be contradicting yourself now.

      Quote Originally Posted by Anandv267 View Post
      Corners high speed weight transfer etc etc etc. all sounds good. The newly IT team lead aint gonna care about all that.
      True and your new IT team lead ain't going to waste his time on a automotive forum either

      The Sail is a nice car in it's own regard, no doubt. Let's not get carried away making unwanted comparisons to other cars.
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      Since multi-quoting is trending right now...

      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Couple of things the boys missed out on.

      The ORVM button fortunately doesn't feel too cheap. And a nice place to store change, fuel and toll receipts etc.

      The boot has a lamp that goes on when you open the boot. Very handy IMO.
      The boys would have loved it if you had helped with the above photos and feedback in the draft section.


      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      1. Enthusiasts.
      Aren't ICE fans enthusiasts too?


      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      2. The younger generation. Visually just doesn't appeal enough as much as the others cars in the category.
      Quite generic predictions. Because when we TDed, we got a lot of second stares from girls and boys on the road. Even our own Anand is quite young. I understand that you would prefer the Swift over the Sail any day, but making multi-quote replies to every post on the thread stamping your disagreement is not helping the point of the review. People love to read different opinions on the thread, not differing opinions all over the thread.


      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      True and your new IT team lead ain't going to waste his time on a automotive forum either
      IT leads reading this are probably squirming in their seats.


      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      The Sail is a nice car in it's own regard, no doubt. Let's not get carried away making unwanted comparisons to other cars.
      A TD review is pointless and useless if we don't compare with other cars in the market. This is important to readers whose primary question would be: How does it compare with the Swift, Figo, Liva etc. Every car has a USP and we have tried to bring out that in the review.


      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Sorry Madhu, I wasn't the one who compared the Swift and the Sail keeping in mind the *enthusiasts*, you did.
      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Precisely why I did not compare the Sail with any other car. It is not for an enthusiast, period. And performance and handling are always co-related FYI.
      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Again, I wasn't the one who talked about differences between any two cars from an enthusiasts perspective. You seem to be contradicting yourself now.
      "It wasn't I!!! It was YOU! YOU! YOU!"

      Okay. But it was really you.

      In your reply to Anand's opinion on the Sail being a Swift beater:
      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Swift beater? Definitely no. Swift seemingly has better interiors, better exterior styling, better handling, way better tune on the engine. Where Swift buyers will look at the Sail is because of the ridiculous waiting periods for the Swift. And probably the stiff suspension that the older people might not like too much.
      I did not choose to reply earlier to state that the Sail had better interiors relatively because it is your opinion. Swift's plastic quality isn't exactly European. Space wise the Sail is 80-20 to the Swift. I will leave out other Interior parameters because they are mostly 50-50. Perhaps you like dark interiors rather than beige. That doesn't mean if someone feels otherwise should be replied to till they... give up?

      How strongly you feel feel about your opinion is apparent in phrases like the Sail will "crawl into a corner", Swift has "way better tune" in its engine, etc. Does the new Swift also brake "far better" than the Sail? I am just asking. It doesn't always have to be about engine performance. (Don't split this and multi-quote out-of-context... I am writing in paragraphs to avoid being misunderstood.)

      IMO, the Sail will have a decent run and won't 'beat' a cult-car like the Swift. It will most likely beat the Beat. (pun intended)
      Last edited by Innocent; 11th Dec 2012 at 10:37.

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