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    Thread: Un-Solved - New Tata Manza pulls to the left over 30 times alignment checked, need solution.

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      Un-Solved - New Tata Manza pulls to the left over 30 times alignment checked, need solution.



      I am new here & have come to this forum with a problem with my new tata manza which pulls to left from day 1 when I bought the manza on 16th May 2011 . The dealer Urmil Motors ghaziabad told me that this new tyre will tread a bit & will solve the problem on its own 1000-1500kms but that was a lie I am now nearing 3000kms on odo but TASS have not been able to solve this problem.

      Its a long story so have patience

      Several attempts have failed to get alignment perfect so the issue was reported to Tata motors customercare & I posted on indulge in manza facebook pages too.

      on 10th June
      the matter was discuss extensively among GMs of various workshops during a training session within Tata CSM (Gurgaon office) & After discussing they concluded that the problem can be sorted out & I got a call from AGM Urmil Motors to get the car atleast once to them since I bought the car from them, I agreed for 11th june meanwhile I got a call from GM Oberai Motors Noida to get the car for a possible solution by replacing the left lower arm. I told him that I want to take the car to Urmil motors as they want to seriously look into this issue to which he happily agreed.

      Next day on 11th June
      I went to Urmil motors & sat there whole day they said that they have sorted out the left pulling problem & GM of urmil motors didn't gave me any alignment report but said that the caster was out by 1.6, which I cant understand as to when the car went to Oberai motors for alignment it did show correct reading & now another tata workshop say the reading were out.

      Nevertheless they "somehow" sorted out the left pulling problem by some jugad (manipulation) & when I rotate the 2 front wheels the left wheel was having friction with brake pads & not moving freely as the right wheel is moving freely. The technician at urmil motors say this is very normal for the left wheel as it generates more power hence get hotter, they are trying to make fool of me knowing I don't know much about cars. Is it true ?

      I drove back home 65kms & the left wheel rim was so hot that you will burn the finger if you touch it & the disk is similarly hot so I didn't even try to touch it whereas right wheel is normal hot due to braking & runing, so this confirms that they are not admitting to the fault right from the day 1 due to which the car had left pulling problem now by some manipulation they have sorted out the problem but created another problem which will have some negative effect on the normal running of the car.

      On 12 June
      Since morning I have been asking for the alignment report from urmil motors & have asked the same from GM urmil motors but on 1st call he was not in workshop, after 2 hours I called at 2pm he said he has just landed in the workshop will soon be emailing me the report & now when I called him up 3.11pm he says the printout cannot be given from the machine as the data is locked unless I get the car back to workshop.

      Amazed at his answer I questioned his workshop working methods & asked him as to why the printout was not taken out on 11 june itself he had no answer. Now he says I will manually make the alignment report & email you, I said I want a computer printout, he is adamant that tomorrow you will get it today being Sunday its not possible.

      Do you smell something fishy?
      If there is the data in the computer as claimed by GM urmil motors of the alignment done on 11 june then cant that be printed out? He is asking me to take the car there at workshop.

      Around 4pm I get a handwritten report from GM Urmil motors with after values & no mention of before values making me doubt if they ever did any sort of alignment at all?

      BY evening shot a email to tata motors which they replied on 13th giving me the regional official mobile number & email copy marked to him.

      13th june
      I went to my local tech who has a roadside workshop & asked him the probable cause of left pulling & he said looking at the tyre that your front tyre seems to be over inflated (he said there can be many other causes but this seems one problem) I said no way the car is now almost aligned to which he voiced his concern that the tyre looks over inflated to his experienced eye, he got a air pressure gauge 3 tyre were 32 psi & left tyre indeed was having 36 psi, surprised by this finding he suggested that we go to a petrol pump & double check there.

      To my surprise YES the left tyre was having 36psi & this is the manipulation which Urmil motors did to solve the left pulling problem. We got the tyre pressure back to 32 & test drove & surprisingly the car starts pulling back to left again, aghasted at this discovery I went back to inflate the left tyre again to 36psi & then drove back & the left pulling problem corrects again. So this was the stupid manipulation done by urmil motors to pacify me of the problem which in turn would have caused tyre irregular treading & in no time I would have to change the tyre.

      Tata motors this is a serious issue at dealer level, are customers suppose to test & cross verify each & everything your dealer say & do?

      On15th June
      I went to meet GM of Oberai motors & told him the whole story he said please bring the car & they will replace the left lower arm, I asked him some detailed question as to understand the problem.

      I questioned him if after replacing 1 part does not solve the problem what will he do then? He categorically replied that Tata motors senior management people are involved & aware about this issue & are committed to solve this problem & he has all approvals to change the parts as required.

      Somewhat convinced I agreed to get the car on 16th June

      16th June
      Sat there whole day hoping to get the car in perfect condition. 2 senior technician along with DET were deputed on the job.

      1.Left lower arm was replaced & alignment done went for the test drive but problem remained as it is, car happily pulled to left again.

      2.Left knuckle was replaced (its a complex assembly where lot of controls are joining too a lot of time in opening)& alignment done went for the test drive but problem remained & got worse, car happily pulled to left again.

      3.Shocked with the 2 replacements now shocker bushes along with left & right shockers were replaced just to ensure that right one is not pushing either, alignment done went for the test drive but problem remained as it is, car happily pulled to left again.

      All efforts gone in Vain whole day past by laughing at our efforts I was sad as before but my inherent nature does not let me go down in crises that's when I discussed with Mr. Rajgopalan GM of Oberai motors to now think out of the box as all their SOP (standard operating procedure as per Manza manual) methods had failed to even locate the problem leave alone the solution to the problem.

      At this point I said jokingly to the team members
      "Even if I consider all tata workshop people are dumb & fool, all fools cant commit the same foolishness exactly the same way dealing with the same problem, there has to be a fool who thinks differently or act differently" THe team members agreed

      This is when I discussed with team about my discussion with DET of Gola Ganpathi motors Haldwani (had a problem in nainital hence had to go to them) who acknowledged the suspension problem & said that this problem can indeed be controlled to some extent by realigning the cross member (I think its called longi)& shifting it by few mm to its right, he even did this once but this has to be a manual procedure of testing as this is a non standard procedure & there is no machine for checking the alignment of cross member. For getting this perfect it will require a lot of time & several road test on highway.

      We tried calling up to discuss the issue with DET, but his phone was not reachable so I gave the number to the team members & came back home with the car dead tired, had a long shower bath cooled down opened a can of bear & started thinking out of the box solution if the cross member shifting plan also fails what then?

      Since I have been discussing this issue with whole lot of automotive experts I have compiled a lot of data+ video from national & international members who willingly have spent time to solve my problem.

      Chilled bear did its magic after going through lot of data & forum post & email exchanged 2 ideas clearly were thought of.

      1. We all have been concentrating to left pulling but something might be instead pushing from the right side so the problem may not be on the left side but the right side.

      2. We have been getting front wheel aligned with the rear & as per my knowledge rear wheel are fixed so what if rear wheel are fixed wrongly by few mm? This would make errors on front wheel alignment.

      From my point of view these both were absurd thoughts from a non automotive person, but I strongly believe absurdity allows us to push the limit of our present knowledge. Two examples I can give, Its was absurd of Newton to think "why does an apple always fall down?" hence we researched gravitational force.

      Some stupid fellow thought in 1970s "can a machine (mainframe computer)talk to another machine kept in another room or building somehow?" today due to that absurd thought we have internet with wi-fi & optical fiber. So evolution happens due to this absurdity & its a must else we will be extinct.

      On 17th june
      Armed with these 2 absurd thought I went to Oberai motors on 17th june
      I reached at Oberai motors & by that time the GM had spoken to DET Gola Ganpathi motors & told me that this so called solution is non standard method which we don't recommend but if I give approval to do so we will go ahead, I STRONGLY suggested YES since all has failed this is our last hope.

      They proceeded with the cross member adjustment, 1st & 2nd time adjustment plus alignment were tested on road without me 3rd time adjustment I went along on expressway approx 30km round trip, the car indeed reduced the left pull but still its there considerably, this is when we spoke to DET again at Gola Ganpathi & he suggested front tyre to be swapped we did that again alignment checked & went for the same road 30km round trip, problem remained as it is.

      As our last attempt the cross member was once again adjusted & alignment done problem at last reduced to 60-70% now, the car at least moves to some distance straight before pulling to left & then we tested on same 30kms round trip.

      I requested for a test drive of another manza, just to check if that does the same left pulling & we went to same 30 kms test drive & this test drive manza also pulls to left so it was concluded by me that THE MANZA PULLS TO LEFT period & we have been trying to fix a problem which all manza are showing, mind you I test drove 3-4 manza at urmil motors they all were drifting to left, I have spoken to other manza users who report the same problem too. Even Vista users are facing this issue with no solution.

      At this point we discussed how my old Indica V2 never showed this problem where as manza on same roads is giving me hell of a time. The only difference between the 2 cars suspension is that in Indica the suspension is mounted on to the body where as in manza the body sits on the suspension, in both cases they have the similar front (MacPherson strut) & rear fixed suspension.

      By this time it was late evening we sat again with Mr. Rajgoplan to file the report to tata motors so it can be escalated right at the manufacturing & design team level. After filing the report I was assured that by tomorrow the answer will be coming so I will be updated but that did not happen as next day was Saturday.

      Overall 5 attempts to fine tune the cross member & alignment gets us 70% correction now & I drove on expressway back home testing the car at various speeds, the car now is stable at least on lower speeds, earlier it was pulling to left quite fast now its still pulling but it does carry on straight to some distance (30-40mt)after that it starts pulling to left.

      19th June
      Sunday night I received a call that factory engineer who is in charge of car production will be coming on Monday morning from Pune.

      20th june
      Mr. Mayur Vyas from the factory came to Oberai motors was briefed of the entire exercise & he listened to me patiently & then asked me to go on a test drive along with CRM Tata motors Ms. Sumedha. I drove with 4 people on the same 30 kms road the car pulled happily to the left & both Tata officials acknowledged the left pulling behavior as not so normal on plain roads. We discussed the road taper to left & its effect on steering etc.

      During the test drive I drove 100-120kmph & showed that the steering is having some EXTRA input from somewhere & it wobbles left / right which is causing eventually the left drift. This was my finding of Sunday's research that steering can also cause this problem. The steering should not have any other extra input accept from my hand but in my case I quite evidently showed this left/right wobbling to the tata team members.

      Tata engineer updated the manza design team & consulted with them. Once back in workshop Mr. Mayur took the car for checking the alignment & the following was done.

      1. My car was aligned & specifically the rear alignment was checked too against the factory values.
      2. Then a new manza was checked for alignment as per the factory values both rear & front values of my car & new manza were matching so that ruled out the rear misalignment.
      3. the new manza was taken a test drive it happily pulled to the left confirming that all manza pull to left. (Total 6 cars tested during this course)

      The findings were reported to the manza design team in Pune & based on further suggestions a maruti desire was tested by the tata team & they reported to me that even that happily puled to the left. (no alignment checked for that car)

      So a big question emerged, are all modern cars suppose to pull left even on fairly straight roads? if yes how much distance should they cover at 80kmph before they pull to the left?

      We sat & discussed the finding of various test & tata team members said that they are taking this findings seriously & would need some time before the design team can give us the answers, from their side this issues is on top priority.

      My personal belief is that all manza & vista are having this problem its just that my kind of driving style has precipitated this problem to a much higher level.

      95% of my driving is on highway & expressway I drive or rather cruise at constant speeds of 100-120kmph on expressway never rev up unnecessarily hence braking is gentle too. Once in 5th gear the entire expressway is covered in that gear maintaining the speed. No wonder my car is giving 22kmpl since the day 1 I am driving at 80kmph only for testing I have done over 100kmph (at least something is good about manza)

      I move out at odd times for my work 6-7am in the morning or late afternoon at 2-3pm so I am mostly getting empty roads to drive on, returning back is late in the night anytime between 9-12PM again empty roads.

      In my own thinking (I might be wrong) macpherson strut as implemented in vista & manza has inherent limitation & it seems that its the nature of this suspension to roll on to the left side.

      This might be the limitation of the way the suspension has been implemented in vista & manza. In my close observation after 70% problem correction is that as the car is moving the car gets into a rhythmic shocker moments & that creates a wave form which needs some release of energy & that is released in from of EXTRA input to the steering thus causing this left pull.

      Specifically the left pull since most roads are 2-5° inclined to the left.

      I still will wait for few more days & want to give tata motors & its engineers a chance as they have tried their best till now to solve the problem, they were slow to respond but they finally responded & I don't see any unwillingness on their part. They acknowledged the problem & filed a joint investigation report on the matter to the higher management today asking few questions to the manza design team too.

      While I wait for them to solve this issue can any expert member on this forum find a probable cause after reading all this detailed account. To me it seems the car is designed to go to left only as all cars I have tested were showing the same problem.

      Its 1.5 months I bought the manza but I am not able to solve this problem as yet.

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      Man the video looks dangerous. I don't know the solution for this. But May GOD be with you. Tyre guys please help ..
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      Ranjan, just went through the whole post in a jiffy, so pardon me if I have missed something..

      Did all the other Manzas you tested pull to the left with the same degree? Its quite surprising that all cars you tested could have had this problem, which makes me wonder if it was indeed a road camber problem. Did you also mention that a DZire was tested and it pulled the same way too?

      Usually if your car is pulling in a particular direction the culprits are:

      1. Front brace nuts not tightened properly.
      2. Bad alignment and balancing of wheels. Have you tried doing the balancing and alignment outside to see if it sorts your problem?
      3. Damaged rims/alloys. Did you swap your tyres to check if your front rims/alloys are bent and hence pulling to one side?
      4. Check your suspension, steering column, driveshafts, lower arms thoroughly! Generally the problem has to be in one of the following parts.
      5. If all fails, it could be a case of a badly aligned chassis. A bent chassis will always lead to a problem like this as well.
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      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Did all the other Manzas you tested pull to the left with the same degree?
      Yes almost similar few were worse than my car, I have been contacting manza owners & few have said on phone that there car does not do it & others have said that they too have exactly the same problems.

      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      you also mention that a DZire was tested and it pulled the same way too?
      That was tested by Tata team not by me they reported me the same behavior to which I dont agree I have been driving since 22yrs now cars should move straight on the road, my old indica V2 did that perfectly.
      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      1. Front brace nuts not tightened properly.
      Tata workshop already checked that but that's not the case.
      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Bad alignment and balancing of wheels. Have you tried doing the balancing and alignment outside to see if it sorts your problem?
      Yes I have tried bridge stone tyre shop too but somehow none is able to pin point the problem. Now I don't think at all if the tyre are responsible for this problem bcoz the 2nd day my car tyre was changed by the dealer from apollo tyre to bridgestone. Rims are not damaged either.
      Total 12 times wheel balancing has been done, 8 times the tyre have been swapped over 30 times the alignment been checked, but since I don't know much about cars I don't understand those reports but assume that they are showing correct.

      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      5. If all fails, it could be a case of a badly aligned chassis. A bent chassis will always lead to a problem like this as well.
      I have been suspecting this but how can we check this in workshop, are there any machines to check & verify? Due to cross member adjustment indeed now the chassis is wrongly aligned but it corrects 60-70% problem now. I have spoken to local mechanic & they don't approve this change they say this can be dangerous in the long run.
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      Quote Originally Posted by urban_gypsy View Post
      Yes almost similar few were worse than my car, I have been contacting manza owners & few have said on phone that there car does not do it & others have said that they too have exactly the same problems.
      Hhhhhmmm! Weird.. Its not possible for all cars to have a similar issue, if that is the case, I would blame the road, not the cars.

      Quote Originally Posted by urban_gypsy View Post
      my old indica V2 did that perfectly.
      I hope you tested the same on the same stretch of road.

      Quote Originally Posted by urban_gypsy View Post
      Total 12 times wheel balancing has been done, 8 times the tyre have been swapped over 30 times the alignment been checked, but since I don't know much about cars I don't understand those reports but assume that they are showing correct
      Do you have the print out of the alignment? If yes, kindly post them on the forum so that we can have a look. In other things, why don't you see if anyone has a set of 14'' alloys and tyres you can swap with and check if the problem still persists. This is one thing I would do to start with. Usually the problem is with the tyres/rims. An aftermarket set could show you different results.

      Quote Originally Posted by urban_gypsy View Post
      I have been suspecting this but how can we check this in workshop, are there any machines to check & verify?
      Yes, the factories do have chassis alignment machines. Not sure if the your dealer has one. Probably, they will have to send the car back to the main factory or outsource it to someone who has a machine in Delhi.

      If you say, multiple cars are facing the same issue, I doubt they all can have chassis alignment problems.
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      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      I hope you tested the same on the same stretch of road.
      Yes on the same roads.
      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Do you have the print out of the alignment? If yes, kindly post them on the forum so that we can have a look. In other things, why don't you see if anyone has a set of 14'' alloys and tyres you can swap with and check if the problem still persists. This is one thing I would do to start with. Usually the problem is with the tyres/rims. An aftermarket set could show you different results.
      Yes I have kept a few reports since these were done so many times I felt they are useless hence don't have all the reports. As said earlier 2nd day the tyre & the rim both were changed from another new manza yes the problem remained. I took the test drive manza tyre also to test both cars including the test drive car were left pulling till then I had my Indica so I could demonstrate to the dealer that this is not a road issue as they have been telling me. I know & agree that roads camber to left mostly but even then cars are suppose to run straight at least 100mts, thsi manza could never do that.

      It cant be tyre for sure as per the numerous reports the tyre alignment issue has been ruled out by the Tata workshop themselves that's the reason they changed the 3 other parts but yet the problem remained as it is & now its a mystery to me hence I asked for help from some knowledgeable people here.

      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Its not possible for all cars to have a similar issue, if that is the case, I would blame the road, not the cars.
      I have been testing on expressway which has fairly flat roads & old car Indica has been running on the very same roads without any such left pulling.
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      A rare one. This happened to a friend's M800 some time ago. It was finally traced to the tyres - different diameters. Exchange to Left and Right wheels and try. If the problem also moves then the tyres are to blame. However, you claim that wheels were exchanged with another car with no improvement so this is unlikely. But as Sherlock used to say,"When you have ruled out the impossible, what remains, howsoever improbable, is the truth".
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      buddy, have you got entire steering system and components checked, as faulty steering system can also let vehicle pulling
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      Quote Originally Posted by anubhavt View Post
      have you got entire steering system and components checked, as faulty steering system can also let vehicle pulling
      Tata motors is looking into the steering issue as 7 manza which were tested 2 by tata engineers themselves they all were puling to the left even on straight roads. I asked them categorically can manza move straight on a straight road or not, they acknowledged the problem & assured to solve but I don't know how long will they take.

      I drive mainly on greater noida expressway which is 27 kms long & has fairly long patches of good straight roads. I am meeting tomorrow morning with 2 manza owners to test their cars.
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      try changing the right wheel to the spare one you have in your boot...
      are you sure that the vehicle is really pulling left and its not a misalignment of the steering wheel ?

      we had this problem in the tata indica our driving school had, and people had to learn to just let go of the steering to feel the center rather than seeing the alignment of the logo in the middle.. *don't punch me , just troubleshooting*

      but if they have same issues in other manza's then I guess must be a misaligned chassis.. even a welding gap of 1mm can be cause of this ask for a total replacement..
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