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    Thread: Un-Solved - New Tata Manza pulls to the left over 30 times alignment checked, need solution.

    1. #11

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      Quote Originally Posted by Dinesh Sachdev View Post
      try changing the right wheel to the spare one you have in your boot..
      That been done plenty of times. I am coming to teh conclusion that tyre alignment /balancing is not really the issue its something else which Tata need to find.
      Quote Originally Posted by Dinesh Sachdev View Post
      are you sure that the vehicle is really pulling left and its not a misalignment of the steering wheel ?
      I can confirm its a real left pull as seen in the video which is happening to straight roads I have been driving on same roads last 5 yrs my Indica V2 & never ever had any kind of left pull. Manza driving is absurd to me I just cant believe this to be normal.
      Ranjan
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      Manza Aura Abs+, FE 22kmpl.

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      It could be two things, either wrong factory alignment of the suspension mounts (geometry of the wheels) due to a design error, which could cause a pull (one wheel position could be a bit forward or backward compared to the other side) no matter what you do on the outside could not correct this. Another maybe the toe in/out could not be set correctly by the wheel aignment mechs.
      Last edited by agn; 25th Jun 2011 at 00:24.

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      either wrong factory alignment of the suspension mounts due to a design error, which could cause a pull
      Alignment has been done at 2 tata workshops by 4 different people & once at bridgestone tyre shop all cant be wrong, none is able to find the problem but yes suspension can be one issue but that too was changed both left & right.

      I have been in discussion with many automotive experts on internet they say that caster is not adjustable & that can cause such left pull & I have talked about this caster reading to tata workshop people but they say its fine as per factory settings & they cannot change it.

      My gut feeling is that its the car geometry which is slightly out of proportion from one side which can only be checked in tata car factory not in workshops. There got to be solution to this problem but my main trouble is that I myself don't know much about cars except driving basics.
      Ranjan
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      Manza Aura Abs+, FE 22kmpl.

    4. #14
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      go to consumer court, lodge a complaint, get them all the bills and supportive material, ask them for redressal .. Now definitely it points out to the chassis..
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      urban_gypsy - Kindly ensure that you take whatever you can in writing. Also please maintain all documents like job cards, bills etc safely. If there is a need for you to go to the consumer court, all this will be very handy.

      Though your first preference should be to work with the Tata team to get to the bottom of this problem. Honestly, its quite baffling to see that they have checked almost everything that needs to be and yet the problem persists. More so when you mention that there are other vehicles that face the same issue as well.

      Also, did they change the rear suspension as well? It is not necessary that only a fault in the front suspension can drag the car to the left. It could be because of a fault at the rear end of the car as well.
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      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      Kindly ensure that you take whatever you can in writing. Also please maintain all documents like job cards, bills etc safely. If there is a need for you to go to the consumer court, all this will be very handy.
      I have all the job cards & email communication with me along with forum post & videos but I don't think I need to convince any judge in my favor the video is evident itself & anyone can drive that car to feel the left pull, at speeds over 100kmph its horribly misaligned even when its fully loaded.

      Consumer court wont hesitate to rule in my favor to replace the car but the trouble is I am yet to find a manza which can move straight on a straight road that's the whole problem.

      Quote Originally Posted by mclaren1885 View Post
      did they change the rear suspension as well? It is not necessary that only a fault in the front suspension can drag the car to the left. It could be because of a fault at the rear end of the car as well.
      Tata engineers were sent with instruction to ensure a speedy solution whatever it takes as this issue has been on the internet & widely discussed they had instructions to change the rear wheel assembly completely but when the alignment were checked for a new manza they matched as per the default factory settings along with my car & it was reported to the Manza design team which ruled out the rear suspension to be faulty.

      I am told that 3 different departments with in Tata motors are looking seriously into this issue to have a speedy solution. Anything can be wrong either with design change/revision or with quality control parameters or with manufacturing process.
      Ranjan
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      Manza Aura Abs+, FE 22kmpl.

    7. #17

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      Problems, Problems & more Problems when the very people who are suppose to diagnose the problems say its not a problem but normal for a car to go left due to road camber then you can never ever solve a problem, that's what has been happening last 1 month since day I bought manza aura abs as you all know.

      Last week I have been quite active on the internet to find the root cause of left pulling & I was not ready to believe that a car will pull to left due to 2-5° camber in the road why? bcoz I have been driving on the very same roads all these years & no car behaved like this manza even the new Indica my father bought a week ago (before My manza) does not behave like that then why Manza?

      Last week after Tata engineer could not pin point the problem I became even more desperate to find the solution I have been stopping manza owners on the road/restaurant/highway joints wherever I spot a manza & ask them about this problem in their manza & have found that many manza owners are having this problem with no solution but I also found 2 manza users who said that their manza goes perfectly straight. So Best was to test drive their manza & see myself , I drove their manza & yes their manza goes straight like any other car should actually go straight.

      So irrespective what Tata motors say the manza can go straight too if anyone within tata motors is willing to consider left pulling as a problem rather than saying this is normal & happens due to road camber.

      Since 2002 I have been part of Tata Indica Users Group (TIUG) on yahoogroups & Mr. Achin Juneja an active & quite knowledgeable member have been reading my manza post with keen observation including questioning me on the alignment reports & he was kind enough to talk to me personally & wanted to inspect my manza himself.

      Just few days ago he had hired a manza taxi (March 2011 Make) & he asked the driver if the car has left pulling problem the driver showed him by taking the hand off steering on straight road that indeed the car moves perfectly straight on the road so I felt YES then even my manza can go straight now if the problem can be pin pointed.

      I decided to meet Mr. Achin Juneja & went to Delhi at his residence, our original plan was to test the manza on 2 very new & flat roads but just as he started driving manza we had some patch of road with path holes & the car was driven over it in 2nd gear, his keen eye observed the left pulling clearly with steering loosely going right / left (This is the 1st time test on such a patch as I only drive on expressway 95%) then further on the way to test drive road he passed the car on a speed breaker & the car again puled to left. Remember the left puling problem was reduced 60-70% even then it did that left pull as it crossed the breaker. I had never tested this earlier.

      He said we don't need any further test drive its proven to him that indeed its pulling to left even after 70% correction now he suggested me that we take the car to one of his best workshops in Gurgaon where he knows the team member personally & vouched for their expertise. The idea was to consult him to at least pin point the source of the problem.

      From Vasant kunj to gurgaon we have a fairly new road & the car was driven by both of us & the left problem remained as it is. We reached "Gurgaon car scanners" (its a tata workshop) in 30 mins & I must say that nobody would want to get the car serviced there. Its an old (or may be oldest in NCR) tata workshop with not many automatic machines & no show off business at all, no beauties to welcome you, but its a workshop meant for "real repairs" hence they don't need all that show off.

      Achin Uncle (as called by the staff) was received very warmly by the staff & Ram Singh head of the team was called & briefed about the left pulling problem & the history along with failed attempts. Ram Singh decided to take a test drive & was quite well convinced of the left pull problem & said that this cant be normal at all.

      Mind you the workshop has no automation except a car jacking up platform, he took the car to a manual old style pit & inspected the car after 30 mins he asked us to sit in the waiting room & he will open the tyres to which I refused as to not to fiddle bcoz 70% problem is corrected so don't disturb it further.

      He said sir your problem is not 70% corrected but another problem seems to be created, he pointed out to the geometrical difference in front 2 tyres due to cross member shifting. He raised his objection & said a car needs to be 1st corrected for its geometry (2 wrongs cant make 1 right together) Well I shared my concern both with Ram Singh & with Mr. Achin Juneja. Our Original plan was not to fiddle with the car but to seek his opinion & pin point the problem.
      Click image for larger version. 

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      Ram Singh said the problem can be found easily but before that he has to get to default settings, after a long discussion we decided to let give a chance. From the glass window we kept discussing & watched Ram Singh & his team taking measurement with thread & seek balance in alignment (They have no modern gadgetry). Thrice during his investigation we both went out to know if he has found any root cause, he smiled & said we will find it for sure else we would have not opened the wheels.

      1. They took the 2 front tyre for wheel balancing & swapped left /right went for a test drive car still pulled to left

      2. Cross member was adjusted back to factory setting which was measured by thread method for correcting the geometry.

      3. 2nd attempt of thread measurement were done to cross check & went for a test drive left pulling became worse as it was in original manza
      4. then they found the probable cause to be the left "Strut" which holds the entire suspension.
      see this image for reference
      http://www.instructables.com/files/d...FWC.MEDIUM.jpg

      He told us that he will be changing the entire left strut assembly. I was not at all ready for all this major change since knuckle/lower arm/ wheel/disk & suspension all will be taken off (Its a complex assembly).

      To explain our doubt he got a new strut (complete assembly as seen in the image) & explained that misalignment in this strut will cause caster to be out causing left pull, (caster is not adjustable in manza or any front wheel car hence caster is dependent on the strut angle). He assured us that if after changing this problem not solved he will get the car back to the same geometry as before & fit back the old strut.

      Faulty Strut has a sticker manufactured by Tenneco Rc India Ltd
      http://www.tenneco.com/OriginalEquip...ies/index.html
      Click image for larger version. 

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      Mr. Achin had pointed out twice in last 1 month asking me question as to how in before report caster was out & suddenly the after report shows its perfect where as caster adjustment is not possible. I could not answer him that time bcoz I don't really understood all this technical things then. Same was pointed out for SAI values to which I had no clue.

      We were feeling hungry by this time as we had not planned the day at the workshop but resisted to move out in anticipation of getting the car fixed soon so sat hungry there whole day having tea & snacks.

      Over 2 hrs work & 2 test drive without us Ram Singh confirmed left pull is gone now but the car is now puling to right which they again adjusted & sent the car for wheel alignment to another shop. By evening the car was ready as per Ram Singh & he broke the news to us that the MANZA moves Straight NOW & we can test drive it. The wheel alignment report was not given & I don't know what kind of machine was used to check & make alignment but driving it to believe was the best way to know it.

      We went for the drive & yes the car was moving almost 80-100mts straight on the road 1st time ever since I bought this car. Could not believe the nightmare of driving a constant left pulling car was getting over. We came back to the workshop & Mr. Achin Juneja discussed in detail with Ram Singh to understand the problem & inspected the faulty area of the strut. Now if you remember left lower arm was changed, then knuckle was changed , then shockers were changed along with the shocker bushes, but strut was not at all on the list to be a probable cause. (all these parts are mounted on the strut) I guess strut also controls the SAI values which were going way off in 2 alignment reports to which Mr. Achin asked me as to why they are so different & in next report how SAI has been corrected, I could not answer that at all as all these words are too new to me & I don't even fully understand them.
      Click image for larger version. 

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      For me it was a "big moment" which actually should have been on the day I bought the car but it came quite late courtesy Tata Motors. I asked the entire team who worked on my car to be in line for a winning moment photograph, Ram Singh humbly said "Sir this is our daily job does it need a photograph" I said Yes it does indeed.
      Click image for larger version. 

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      We thanked the entire team & took the car out & went straight for a longer test drive the car moved almost straight & I can confirm that now after shifting back the cross member to original position the problem is 90% corrected & on flat roads the car has driven absolutely straight up to 1km, YES 1 km without me touching the steering on expressway (Don't try this its dangerous if your cars are not properly aligned) While driving on expressway it was the 1st time ever that I realized how relaxed now the driving was at speeds of 100-120kmph.

      Why 90% correction only??
      The steering still seems to have some loose /free moment, I tested on a bad road & steering rolls left/right by 1-2 inches which I don't think is normal so the steering having some extra input still remains to be investigated & I am quite hopeful that this problem can be sorted out to 100% perfection. If needed I will post a video of steering roll for members to seek advice.

      Its been proven over & over again that machines are as good as the humans working with it, technologically we might be advancing but unfortunately we are not investing enough in human brain power which is crucial for perfection.

      Perfection is not something you go & buy in a shop or a mall it comes only to few who are blessed with crazy brains & one of those crazy person is Mr. Achin Juneja an elderly gentleman whom I can say is passionately in love with automobile problems & its solutions. Pardon my statement but I am honored to meet a mad person like Mr. Achin Juneja who felt the pain of my problems as his own & asked me to get the car to him for a test drive, then further took me to "Gurgaon Car scanners" personally leaving all his day work, (this was not planned) & sat there whole day with no lunch till late evening & got the problem solved as if it was his own car & his own problems.

      Genius is another name of madness but to be genius madness is an essential component & he does possess that element of crazy madness else why would someone leave his whole day work for someone else he has just met on the internet via forum & get connected to root out the problem.

      Thank You Mr. Achin Juneja!
      If Tata Motors can have few cloned copies of you they might rule the world in automobile industry.


      Update from Tata Factory
      Now all this while Tata engineer Mr. Mayur Vyas has been updating me on the discussion he had with the design team & reported to me that the cars they tested in the plant also does pull to left & this is normal. For the official version of tata motors he asked me to contact Ms Sumedha Singh CSM Tata Motors which I will be meeting tomorrow.

      To me this is completely unacceptable & since I have met so many manza owners now who have exactly the same left puling problem I feel sad that Tata motors has let so many manza run on the road with serious problem which can in many case lead to an accident. I hope they understand the gravity of the problem & sort this out right at the manufacturing level, else it will bring bad name to otherwise a good INDIAN car, YES its a good car & I hope it to remain good for years to come.

      Overhead expanses
      Few things can never be compensated by money & one of them is my time & the agony this problem brought to me & my family.

      1. Loss of Income
      Last 40 days I have not stepped into my office & have not been doing any work, I still consider myself to be lucky to do all that time devotion to solve out a major problem in manza.
      2. Loss of holiday & additional expanses due
      Hotel booking had to be canceled then later we shifted our destination & booked again on the way to Nainital manza broke down & had to call a taxi from the resort, I had to come back up to haldwani where the problem was solved but by then I already had hired a taxi at the cost of 18000/- for the rest of the family members to move without me, I did not want their holiday to be spoiled.
      3. Mental agony
      I cant say how many sleepless nights I had in last 40 days & sat long hrs on computer to find solution & interact with other members on many automotive forums, I see the positive side of this agony & this has given me many good knowledgeable people whom I would have not known otherwise.

      Hope tata motors understand that such experience from the manza customers will not go down well for future prospective buyers.

      Thanks to all those who have spent time reading my long mails all this while & then trying to understand my problem & guiding me to finally solve the problem.
      Ranjan
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      Manza Aura Abs+, FE 22kmpl.

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      urban_gypsy - I appreciate your patience in fixing this issue and special thanks to Mr. Achin Juneja for his timely involvement. Good that your problem is solved now, what is TML going to do now?? Are they going to issue any re-call or just beat around the bush??

      What is Ms Sumedha Singh going to do??
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    9. #19

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      Quote Originally Posted by camchennai View Post
      What is Ms Sumedha Singh going to do??
      I really dont know what Tata motors want to do will get to know when I meet them tomorrow & take them officially for a test ride on the very same roads & show them how the same manza moves straight.

      Not many manza owners have that much time & patience as I had, they cant even prove this left pulling behavior so most of them have settled with this problem.
      Ranjan
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      Well, thanks for the experience you have shared. Not all the people can put their experience in words like you did.
      Appreciate your efforts in sharing every detail with us. Happy driving with your Manza..

      This is not the case with TATA itself, inexperience and unwilling/inability to learn or troubleshoot the actual problem is seen everywhere even in Maruti and Hyundai service centres.

      I suggest you to post the link of this thread on tata manza facebook page to make the other manza owners aware of this problem and its solution.
      Last edited by mclaren1885; 29th Jun 2011 at 01:17. Reason: Merged back to back posts.
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